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Why Abortion is Moral

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12:51 pm
October 23, 2008


spacecoastconservative

Member

PSJ

posts 33

1

Sean Freeman said:

I have always been amazed at the dichotomy associated with the issue.

An abortionist commits no crime when ending the life of an unborn child but a criminal can go to jail for life for ending that same life.


Sean,


I agree. What is worse, is that they say that it is okay to abort a child who is four weeks in the womb. And yet, the day old babies (others call them zygotes or fetuses: I do not) conceived via in vitro fertilization but not introduced into the womb is frozen for later use and when the parents get divorced they can sue for possession of the babies. The babies can get assigned court-appointed lawyers, court appointed guardians, the grandparents and others may have a say.


Where in the world is the consistency in that? If the babies of IVF deserve to be treated a certain way, then so does a child in the womb. They should have advocates in court to represent them. It's not as if they get a voice. It's not as if they have anyone standing up for them.


If the father wants the child to be carried to term and the mother wishes to abort, nine times out of ten, the baby is legally aborted without further discussion. IF a father wants to take it to court, the mother's “rights” are considered more important than the sperm donor's because the baby is inside the mother, and (to use the terminology of the person who posted first) “leaches” off the mother, the mother's “right” to be rid of the “leach” is given tantamount importance. The other half of the DNA has no say, no rights, no way to help that baby live.


When America went down that terrible, twisted, deadly road — all based on a lie (we now know who ROE is and we know she was told to lie in court in order to get the abortion) — and the “High Court” (I cannot call them “Supreme” in this case) decided that they found the right to an abortion in the US Constitution, we never foresaw what lie ahead. We have murdered millions of babies — our future — and many brilliant people who had brilliant ideas ahead of them all because someone finds it inconvenient, difficult, embarrassing, untimely, wrong daddy, etc.


Instead of allowing abortion, why not teach women/girls to keep their legs together and guys to keep their pants zipped? Is that so difficult? Or is it just that when liberals get their way sex is the “natural” thing and it must take place as early as possible because the sexualization of our children ensures that at least some of them will wind up on the government sit-on-your-backside-do-nothing-all-day-but-get-a-check-anyways programs and ensure Democrats are reelected? Our children, our bodies and our morals have been sacrificed on the altar of getting liberals more votes and nothing else matters.


When we put elections and winning them ahead of our values, ahead of right and wrong, ahead of our babies both inside our bodies and already born, ahead of cherishing our virginity until our wedding nights, we put elections as our gods. When nothing else matters but the vote then is it any wonder our whole nation has degraded to the sexual morass it is? 


We used to consider it abnormal to have sex outside of marriage, but most babies conceived that way were not aborted. Now, we consider it abnormal to carry the child. We used to encourage virginity; now it's not only discouraged, but girls are forming pacts to get pregnant during their freshman years! Sexuality is considered a power play, a toy, an experimental thing to explore and figure out which way you like it. Right and wrong have gone not just by the wayside, but totally out of the picture as we teach children in kindergarten that it's okay to have sexual feelings and that homosexuality is okay.


Nothing is sacred. Nothing is immoral. It's no holds barred and it's good and natural. And we wonder why our young people are disease ridden, messed up, depressed, suicidal, drug users. And we don't tell them that they are precious and forgiven and they are important. How can we? We just taught them that their bodies are worthless, to just give it away to anyone anywhere at anytime; it's okay. So when we bury a twenty, thirty or more teens every year within a county due to suicide, how can we do anything but know that it is not their fault but our own because we failed to teach them that they are important enough to not abort, as is the baby they carry, or their little brother or sister?


*stepping off my soapbox now*

www.spacecoastconservative.com — Harsh reality.

4:49 pm
October 22, 2008


Sean Freeman

Member

posts 8

2

I have always been amazed at the dichotomy associated with the issue.

An abortionist commits no crime when ending the life of an unborn child but a criminal can go to jail for life for ending that same life.

12:36 pm
October 16, 2008


spacecoastconservative

Member

PSJ

posts 33

3

PBC,


Didn't mean to change your quote. I tried to fix a spelling error and the thing took the whole word out instead of just backspacing the error. My apologies.


Linda

www.spacecoastconservative.com — Harsh reality.

12:07 pm
October 16, 2008


spacecoastconservative

Member

PSJ

posts 33

4

Palm_Bay_Conservative said:

While the initial response to this insane argument was flawless, I think we need to realize that abortion is not a complex moral issue.  I can't take credit for this myself, that goes to “Stand To Reason” http://www.str.org.

It really all boils down to one question, “What is the unborn?”  Which, even the flawed initial argument admits is a human being.

The reason that this is the only question that matters?

“If the unborn is not a human being, then no justification for abortion is , however, if the unborn is a human being, then no justification for abortion is adequate.”


PBC,


I agree with the statement you quote (and a great website reference, btw). I also agree that the abortion issue is NOT a “complex moral issue”. It is as simple as DNA, and that is enough.


When the US Supreme Court (“Supreme”? Shouldn't they have sung that ruling?) found the right to abortion via privacy in the US Constitution, they rewrote the US Constitution to suit their own beliefs. It became to some the “living Constitution” that some now tout. Problem is, when the US Constitution becomes a malleable, pliable thing, it also becomes nonexistent. A Constitution, from any entity, cannot be a protecting document if we can change it to suit our own desires and beliefs. When we participate in doing so we not only negate all of the things we disagree with, but also all of the things we agree with as well. Everything is open to re-evaluation and change. That leaves us unprotected from the smallest group trying to find a way to get whatever they want.


A “living Constitution” is no more a Constitution than Jell-O® is and when we make our US Constitution into Jell-O®, we endanger not only our country, but everything our country has ever stood for, everything that has protected us from others (including the government) and everything we used to hold dear.


Those US “Supreme” Court Justices who “found” the right to allow abortion within our US Constitution did America no favors.

www.spacecoastconservative.com — Harsh reality.

8:50 pm
October 11, 2008


Palm_Bay_Conservative

Member

Palm Bay

posts 24

5

While the initial response to this insane argument was flawless, I think we need to realize that abortion is not a complex moral issue.  I can't take credit for this myself, that goes to “Stand To Reason” http://www.str.org.

It really all boils down to one question, “What is the unborn?”  Which, even the flawed initial argument admits is a human being.

The reason that this is the only question that matters?

“If the unborn is not a human being, then no justification for abortion is neccesary, however, if the unborn is a human being, then no justification for abortion is adequate.”

12:50 am
August 6, 2008


spacecoastconservative

Member

PSJ

posts 33

6

You have several problems with your “logic”.

1) A hair follicle is human DNA. However, that human DNA does not have (to use your own word) the “potential” to become a human WITHOUT human intervention to become that human. A human baby (I refuse to use the terms “zygote, fetus,” or other such nonsense: it's a baby) is a human baby at conception because WITHOUT intervention: that is its natural course.

A follicle CANNOT BECOME a baby without intervention; a baby IS a baby without intervention.

Major flaw.


2) According to http://www.scielosp.org/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0042-96862002001100009 , the WHO's own bulletin, the numbers quoted are incorrect.  “FINDINGS: The relative risk (RR) of death during pregnancy but before the onset of labour was 0.93 (95% confidence interval (CI): 0.38-2.32).”

Thus, part of your argument must be disregarded since you are throwing erroneous numbers out. The WHO bulletin further states,

“Of the deaths of women in the period including pregnancy and the 12 weeks following pregnancy outcome, 86% were disease-related.”

Thus, if you are using the wrong information to back up your conclusions, your conclusions must be flawed.


3) A “potential person”? What is the dictionary definition, medical, legal, moral definition of “potential person”? Flaws like making up terminology for logical discussion is child's play: there is no such thing as a “potential person”.

Science has already deemed an amoeba – something you brought into the discussion – as being alive. Science has already found “life” in a metorite that landed in Alaska and deemed it outer space life because of the amoeba: one cell. If a single cell is life, then two cells coming together – sperm and egg – must be twice as alive as an amoeba, therefore must be alive. And, using your own definitions, it grows, needs nutrition, has waste products: therefore, it must be alive. My computer does none of those things; it is not alive. A baby does those things from conception to birth to old age death; it is alive.


4) You have left out the fact that in vitro fertilization, surrogate motherhood, and egg and sperm donations have added life to this world as well as other methods of fertilization. A baby no longer depends on the “one woman” idea since a child's conception can take place in one woman's womb and be transferred to another woman's womb. Thus, your argument there is flawed.


5) You claim the baby has no self-awareness. I beg to differ and you must not have children! We see in babies self-awareness and identity all the time. Watch a baby play with his toes and find out about wiggling them. Watch a baby look at his Mom and watch how he picks up on her expressions and mimics them. That's learning and self-awareness. Ahh… Your argument will go, that's AFTER they are born. Ever watched an ultra sound? Ever seen a child inside the womb react to sound, react to touch, react to voices, or pain? That may not be what you consider self-awareness, but when a child inside the womb is able to do all that, it is already learning and growing. And, if a baby is able to do all that, and a woman is still legally able to kill that baby, don't you think the baby should at least have the same rights as a you? After all, you, too, react to sound, voices, touch, and pain. If babies do not have the same rights as someone/something that reacts the same way to certain stimuli, then I assert that your argument is flawed since you have already acknowledged that babies have the same DNA and that babies are human.


6) You assert in your point five that, “Thus, a gestating fetus has no rights before birth and full rights after birth.” Problem: How about babies who are born — full term pregnancies — without the mental capability to ever come to “conscious” life; life that you equate to being a fully conscious human being after the age of about two years old. What if the thirteen-year-old with a severe mental handicap is incapable (in your terminology) to be a “conscious” life? Should that person, allowed to come to term within its mother and loved by the people taking care of him or her, be on the list of people it's okay to kill without remorse nor legal consequences? The law, and morality, say no. Your own circular logic says no because that person is already born and past the two year old stage. Should this person in your eyes be “killable” without consequence? Yours is a flawed argument.


7) In your point five, you quote the Preamble to the US Constitutioin. If you are going to quote it, why not read it? It says, “We hold these truths to be self-evident; That all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalieneable rights. That among these rights are LIFE, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness…” Without the RIGHT to LIFE, there are no other rights. There is nothing without the RIGHT to LIFE. Dead people don't have the rights of Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Without being ALIVE we cannot have any of the other GOD GIVEN RIGHTS: LIFE being the first and foremost. If you are going to quote the Preamble, then at least realize what it says. It is a flawed and specious argument that quotes something and ignores the quote!


8) Giving a baby the “Right to Life” does not automatically cancel out the mother's Right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. If so, every Mother who has ever given birth instead of aborting her baby has given up her right to life and we can all now be murdered. We are all without the right to pursue our own happiness, or to liberty. We are all second class citizens. Also, how about conjoined twins that cannot be separated or do not wish to be? Do they have equal rights? Are they in the same body? Don't they have the same rights? Again, flawed arguments.


9) Define “person” differently than our dictionary does; because that is apparently what you are doing in your last para. in your fifth assertion. Erroneous assertion, I should say. A baby in the womb is a person, and a baby outside the womb is a person; even before two years of age. Your definition must be totally flawed because my dictionary and legal and scientific and medical dictionaries all agree with my defiintion. Thus, your argument is flawed.


10) Using independence to decide when we should be able to kill a child? So that, in your flawed logic would deem it okay to also apply the independence clause to the elderly and we could “abort” them as well. We should be able to just smother grandma and grandpa because they are no longer independent and they are a burden on us, taking away some of our “Pursuit of Happiness” time and getting in our way. What about their rights? What about the “over two” theory? Flawed argument.


11) YOU SAY, “But that doesn't stop religious fanatics from dumping their judgements and their anger on top of women who choose to exercise the right to control their bodies.” FLAWED. It is NOT THEIR BODIES they are controlling when they destroy a baby. It is NOT their bodies being torn limb from limb and suctioned into a sink. It is NOT their bodies being burned with saline solution, or whose brains are sucked out at the last moment so that the skull can be crushed and the baby delivered dead. THE WOMAN'S body is still intact. You are using a flawed argument.


Your statements are so totally bereft of logic it is astonishing to see that you consider them correct! You are wrong. You are not just wrong, but demonstrably, and irrefutably wrong. You don't consider every aspect of what you are saying, following it to the logical conclusion. You have no concept of how to follow the trail and how to put two and two together. If you think that your “argument” for abortion is well done, well tought out and reasoned, then you must not know much about logic and reasoning!

I also must question your views on the biblicality of abortion. I have not yet read that “assertion” (for I will not call it an argument, logic, or reason), but I can tell without a doubt that you are going to be using something besides the traditional Bible, circular logic (which iis not logical at all) and irrational thought patterns to try to justify something you probably had a hand in to make you want to stand up for it so badly. I am sorry for you and for the baby or babies you helped abort. But that doesn't mean that it's okay to justify it by posting this kind of nonsense all over the web. Your heart must be heavier than I can ever imagine. But that doesn't mean God can't forgive you and what you did or encouraged another to do.  And, May God have mercy on your soul for all the abortions you may have helped come about with your little illogical diatribe. It's so sad to see your heart.


www.spacecoastconservative.com — Harsh reality.

4:20 pm
August 3, 2008


conceptual_one

New Member

posts 1

7

All of the arguments against abortion boil down to six specific questions. The first five deal with the nature of the zygote-embryo-fetus growing inside a mother's womb. The last one looks at the morality of the practice. These questions are:

  1. Is it alive?
  2. Is it human?
  3. Is it a person?
  4. Is it physically independent?
  5. Does it have human rights?
  6. Is abortion murder?

Let's take a look at each of these questions. We'll show how anti-abortionists use seemingly logical answers to back up their cause, but then we'll show how their arguments actually support the fact that abortion is moral. 

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